Naval combat

[Thagarr]

Greetings! Some of you may have seen my post about Cross of the Dutchman over on my home port of Pirates Ahoy! For those of you that haven't, I found this website a couple of weeks ago when I was looking up some history on Pier Gerlofs Donia, I wish I had realized what I had blindly stumbled across when I first found this site, but I am a bit slow sometimes! I registered on the forums a few days ago and have spent as much time as I could reading through the development blogs and forum posts trying to soak up everything I can about this game.

I really like everything I have seen so far, from what I have read, the choice of the Unity 3D engine appears to be a very good one and it should do a fantastic job of showing off the game! I think the action/adventure game genre should fit this game quite well. I also really enjoyed reading about how you came up with designs and concepts for the game world. The building designs look spot on, and the early concept art for the characters and outfits look good.

The one thing that stands out to me so far, is I have not seen one mention of ships or shipboard combat. I find that rather curious being as one of Pier's biggest accomplishments was capturing 28 Dutch ships in one day. Over at PA, we are mainly focused on the Golden Age of Piracy, but we are somewhat familiar with pirates from all ages throughout history as well. We are also quite familiar with almost all types of ships, after all, what good is a pirate without dependable vessel? I understand that while the game is in development you really don't want to give to much away, but if someone could please let me know if any type of naval combat will be in the game, it would enhance PA's interest in this game considerably!

[USSGreatePier]

Hi Thagarr,

first of all welcome to the forum...

I have also expressed my interest in naval battle a few times on this forum, but have yet to see the first hint of it. Of course, like you also said, the developers probably don't want to give everything away just yet, so I'll be curious to know how they will respond to this :D

[Thagarr]

Ahoy USSGreatePier, thanks for the welcome mate!

Perhaps if we both make enough of a ruckus, they will have to answer just to shut us up! ;)

In all seriousness though, I can fully understand why they may be reluctant to say, it is not an easy thing to pull off correctly. But it doesn't need to be a full blown, hardcore naval battle simulation to be fun! In the time period the game is taking place in, naval combat was completely different than what it would become a little over 100 years later. Gunports had only recently(right around 1500) began being cut into ships, and cannon were no where near as accurate or reliable. Those two facts in themselves could open up some interesting gameplay mechanics!

Ship designs were changing a lot during that time period as well. Galleons were loosing their oars, trade cogs had mostly been replaced by hulks, and the Dutch flyboats were slowly transforming into flutes, a design that would revolutionize trade. Forecastles were still tall and bulky also, making sailing and boarding just a bit more interesting! I don't believe this particular era has been done in a game before, and it would be fantastic to see models of these beautiful ships in this 3D engine!

[Remco]

Hey Guys! Noticed this post but I'm only able to reply from my phone at the moment. Naval battles will definitely be a part of CotD, but it is also one of the most difficult things to wrap our heads around. I will put my thoughts into writing about this subject in the coming week. I'm sure that will help get an idea about what we are going for with the battles on the Zuiderzee!

[Thagarr]

Ahoy Remco, great news indeed, thanks for the info mate!

I am definitely looking forward to your upcoming post!

[USSGreatePier]

I'm sure that will help get an idea about what we are going for with the battles on the Zuiderzee!

Ah, sounds very good!

Like I may have said before, I have no link to the sea nor do I have sea legs myself, but it will definitely be a very cool thing to me for the game. Some of Pier's greatest successes and adventures took place on the Zuiderzee and should prove to be some interesting game play.

I now have no doubt this game will be very diverse indeed... It will appeal to many different types of game players. I hate to fill your shoes and those of your team, Remco... Sounds like a daunting task you took upon yourselves :)

[Remco]

@USSGreatePier - It took us some time before we knew we would be able to even take up the task of developing a game. However, we're playing to our own strengths, and really don't want to claim anything we would not be able to pull off.

Couple of things I can mention before I post the item later this week;
* Pier did not have any experience in Naval battles, or even sailing for that matter.
* Most ships used were ships that were also used for transport, and were similar to the Skûtsje ships we still know today, although they were probably a lot smaller.
* Pier earned his name "Cross of the Dutchman" because of his achievements at sea.

[Remco]

Topic is live, let's keep the discussion over here :-)

[Markos]

Topic is live, let's keep the discussion over here :-)

Great new posting, well worth the waiting!
That artwork of Pier overlooking the Zuiderzee is without a doubt the most awesome artwork of you guys I've seen so far.
The naval battle element is beginning to look very promising, that's for sure! ;)

[Thagarr]

Sorry if my post rushed things a bit Remco, but as I mentioned in my comment on your post, these tactics are very similar to what Vikings used. They would surround a vessel with 3 or 4 longboats, and it was simply a matter of time before one group would successfully board. Vikings wouldn't take the ship in most cases though, they would simply take anything of value they could find, and sink the carcass. It's that type of attack that led to the high fore and aft castles on later sailing vessels. That is the kind of boarding combat I was hoping for! It's a lot more difficult to defend a ship from attackers when they are attacking from multiple sides, even if the defending force is superior in number.

I am far from being an expert, but I have done a bit of research into medieval ships, and I believe the type of ships the Dutch would have had would have been similar to the Duyfken, an early form of barque. Much more likely however, there would have been flyboats. I have far less knowledge when it comes to fishing boats of that era though, but I imagine they might have been similar to ventjagers, the small ship in the distance behind the Herring buss in the first picture. But I am sure you are a lot more familiar with vessels from the area than I am.

[USSGreatePier]

Can't wait to plunder some Dutchies, hehehehe...

[Remco]

Sorry if my post rushed things a bit Remco, but as I mentioned in my comment on your post, these tactics are very similar to what Vikings used.

It takes quite a bit of thought to come up with good new articles every day, so your post was an excellent way to start the week :-)

They would surround a vessel with 3 or 4 longboats, and it was simply a matter of time before one group would successfully board. Vikings wouldn't take the ship in most cases though, they would simply take anything of value they could find, and sink the carcass. It's that type of attack that led to the high fore and aft castles on later sailing vessels. That is the kind of boarding combat I was hoping for! It's a lot more difficult to defend a ship from attackers when they are attacking from multiple sides, even if the defending force is superior in number.

I think, that -similar to the vikings- Pier and his men also did not know what they would do with a fleet. They could sell it, but to who? They weren't sailors either, let alone had served on warships. I do agree that it was probably a couple of small ships entering a larger vessel at the same time. The victims would hardly be able to respond from an attack from all sides.

I am far from being an expert, but I have done a bit of research into medieval ships, and I believe the type of ships the Dutch would have had would have been similar to the Duyfken, an early form of barque. Much more likely however, there would have been flyboats. I have far less knowledge when it comes to fishing boats of that era though, but I imagine they might have been similar to ventjagers, the small ship in the distance behind the Herring buss in the first picture. But I am sure you are a lot more familiar with vessels from the area than I am.

What we know is that the rivers and canals in Frisia were very shallow. So the ships that were used to transport goods were very flat, which allowed them to slide over sand and through very shallow waters (sometimes just 3 or 4 feet). The fishing boats were supposedly larger and had more Draft, but were still very basic and quick at open seas.

What we know about the ships from that age is all because of research. Any additional information you guys might dig up is very helpful, and might just work its way into the game :-)

[Thagarr]

Ah well, in that case, glad I could help mate! :D

The Zuiderzee and it's surrounding area and islands is an interesting place to be sure, I don't think there is another area on the planet quite like it. Someone familiar with those waters would have a distinct advantage in any kind of battle, such as being able to draw your adversary into the shallows and get him stuck in the sand, or drive him into a submerged rock outcropping. Fisherman would definitely know the area quite well.

I do understand exactly what you mean about inspiration for new articles, I have that problem myself sometimes. If there is anything specific that you would like help with, please don't hesitate to ask! In the meantime, I will try and come up with some new inspiration for you.

[Thagarr]

Thanks to a post over on our forums, a ran across another possibility for a type of lightly armed coastal trader that may very well have been present during Pier's time. You may already know about it, but I thought I would mention it just in case. The ship was called a Hoy, or in Dutch a hoey, and was used mostly for coastal trading and some passenger service. It appears this type was more prevalent in later periods, but they were in use in the late 15'th century.

[Remco]

Forwarded your Wiki article to Pascal, as he is creating ship designs for the game right now :-)

[Leaver dea as slaaf]

I Googled a little about the boat mentioned by Thager. This is what I found:

http://www.vaartips.nl/binnenvaart.htm

Searching on this site with the word 'Hoei' led to a boat called Heude. This is what that page says about the boat:

De "Informacies opt stuck van de verpondinghe" over toltarieven uit 1494 en 1514 noemen bij Rotterdam en Dordrecht heuden of huedenaeren. Het waren rondgebouwde platboomd vracht- en veerscheepjes voor de binnenvaart en kleine kustvaart en kunnen als voorloper van de tjalk worden beschouwd. De heu was sprietgetuigd en had een hoge verschansing met daarachter een bewapening van vier tot zes stukken. Het waren "littill shippes called hoys" die o.a. in Middelburg en Arnemuiden uit Engelse schepen (hulcken) lading overnamen om verder landinwaarts te vervoeren, maar werden ook gebruikt als beurtschip voor vracht en passagiers. Hoewel er geen zekerheid over bestaat zijn er aanwijzingen dat de aanroepkreet Ahoy zijn herkomst heeft van hoei, hoy of heude.

Searching further on 'heude' I found a Wikipedia page in Dutch about the boat:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heude

It states it was a riverboat that was used in the Southern Netherlands.

I believe it is about the same boat that Thager mentions.

[Thagarr]

Forwarded your Wiki article to Pascal, as he is creating ship designs for the game right now :-)

Thanks mate, I really hope the information is useful. Thanks to you as well Leaver dea as slaaf, the link is much appreciated! I'll put it through Google Translate and have a thorough look at it!

I am by no means an expert when it comes to ships, especially of this era, I am much more familiar with much earlier Viking longboats and much later sloops and brigs. I believe though, a lot of ships around this time were still clinker built. There was a lot of interaction between Vikings and Frisians a few hundred years earlier, in fact they lived side by side for a while, so some ship construction techniques were probably quite similar. I found a great video on Youtube a while back of a 3D rendering of just how a longboat was built, and it pretty well the clinker construction. You can watch it HERE!

**EDIT** Fixed the Youtube link!

[Remco]

We're running an article on the design of the ships in CotD, check out the frontpage!

(and are linking to this topic to invite more people over)

[USSGreatePier]

Nice designs there, folks... Now that we've got tall ships, we only need a star to steer them by :)

[Thagarr]

Very good article Remco!

Nice designs there, folks... Now that we've got tall ships, we only need a star to steer them by :)

err... you mean a sunstone! ;)

[USSGreatePier]

err... you mean a sunstone! ;)

Whatever sails your boat, Thagarr :D

[Remco]

Sailing the Zuiderzee probably wasn't that difficult, unless you sailed out to the Northsea that is ...

[Thagarr]

Sailing the North Sea wasn't all that difficult either, if you had a proper boat! :D

**EDIT** Fixed the Youtube link in my above post, being able to embed Youtube videos on the forum would sure make things a lot more convenient.

[Remco]

I'll send Timen a heads-up to implement that plugin next week :-)

[Timen]

**EDIT** Fixed the Youtube link in my above post, being able to embed Youtube videos on the forum would sure make things a lot more convenient.

It's on my to do list. So expect this to be implemented soon.